Glossary proposal

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Viridovix
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Glossary proposal

Beitrag von Viridovix » 19.03.2008 00:44

Hi all and, as usual, sorry for english post. :-)

I'm working on a glossary that can works for multilanguage environment (like DSA -> DE, EN, FR, IT). Basically the idea is as follows:

1. create a template for the glossary item with this call definition:

{{GlossaryItem
|de-word=
|de-definition=
|en-word=
|en-definition=
|fr-word=
|fr-definition=
|it-word=
|it-definition=
}}

the template definition is not so important (could be a simple table).

2. create, for convenience, several pages A, B, C,.... where all the GlossaryItem are placed (thus the items are easily managed)

3. by DPL Extension and Phantom templates it is possible to create dynamic glossaries ordered by the italian or german or english word, for italian, english, german languages.

I tryed something similar in http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... _Glossario
where the keyword is the italian term and the definition is italian.
http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... ossario/en
where the keywor is english and definition is italian (at the moment no DPL is used for selection, thus the item are sorted in italian ;-) )

Advantages:

1. all the glossary item are placed in only one point for all contributor

2. another template parameter could be some kind of classification, thus it is possible to create thematic glossaries filtering on parameter by DPL

3. not all translation are required: they could be added later.

4. all the glossary in all the languages are updated when a glossary item is updated or added.

Opinion?

V.

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 19.03.2008 01:17

Your idea sounds great! Two questions come to my mind:
1. Which Wiki do you think should be the host for this glossar? An existing one (yours or ours) or would you like to create a new one for this purpose? An obvious advantage of chosing "Wiki Aventurica" would be that we could reuse content of existing english and french pages. But of course we lack Italian translations.
2. Are there any other communities that would contribute to such a glossary, in particular english or french ones? I remember that sb. mentioned a french online community, but I can't remember who and where.

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 19.03.2008 01:36

1. Wiki Aventurica MUST host the glossary, because it is the "meeting point" of DSA community. The other wiki can copy the glossary (but with an advice of where is the source!) if it is released under creative commons or create a wiki link.

2. I have DSA4 in english (fanpro edition) and I'm translating it in italian in order to check our house rules to see if they are applicable in that edition. Thus I'll be able, if there is the english term, to translate in italian .

3. I think that several english-german translation terms are already present in Wiki Aventurica.

4. If you agree, I can made some test on www.usnb.it to create the template and DPL queries. Then we can put everything on wiki aventurica

V.

EDIT: I would like to propose the italian translation to Thomas Römer...

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 19.03.2008 02:05

I totally agree and I doubt that anyone else will disagree. Right now it's a little late, but I'm looking forward to start the project tomorrow. :-)

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 19.03.2008 02:34

ok

I will start with the test this week (I've some holidays ;-) ). When the Glossary templates are OK, we can start to fill them...

V.

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 21.03.2008 03:23

I had a look at what similar pages exist in our Wiki and found this page: "Wörterbücher". I think we can reuse some of the content. As you can see from the english-german dictionaries linked on the page above there are different translations possible, so maybe the template should be extended accordingly (or we just leave out the 'Realms of Arkania' translation and just concentrate on the books).
Other content we might reuse for the french and english definitions can be found browsing the categories FR and EN.

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 21.03.2008 12:04

I've seen the page and it seems great (except for TOC that has some problems). Basically, we need only a way to automatize such glossary. I agree with you, we can reuse that source and informations.

IMHO, it is better to concentrate on books, but we can extend the glossary in order to include Realms of Arkania simply by using one more parameter for classification (or several classification)

As example:

{{
|de-key=Charisma
|de-def= german definition
|it-key=Fascino
|it-def=una delle Qualità che definiscono il personaggio
...
|en-key=Charisma
|en-def=one of the basic quality for character definition
|official=true
|class=Book,Realm of Arkania, Character Sheet, Basic Rules
|}}

if the glossary item is valid (such as for Charisma) for both, then both classification term are included.

The DPL can easily (more or less :wink: ) select the page acting on the list in class parameter. Thus we will be able to create a Glossary for Book or Realm of Arcania or the Basic Rules in Book and so on...

Moreover, placing a code (say n.a.) in a translation term, we can create a list showing the untraslated term for collaborators.

{{
|de-key=Charisma
|de-def= german definition
|it-key=Fascino
|it-def=una delle Qualità che definiscono il personaggio
|fr-key=n.a.
|fr-def=n.a.
|en-key=Charisma
|en-def=one of the basic quality for character definition
|official=true
|class=Book,Realm of Arkania, Character Sheet, Basic Rules
|}}

All the glossary items can be placed in one (or several) pages following the german alphabetical order. When the french traslator look at the glossary french untraslated list he can see that the french term for Charisma is missed, thus he can:

1. open the page GlossaryItems/C.
2. find inside the page the term Charisma.
3. gives a value for fr-key, fr-def and save the page.
4. done!

Thus, we must built the following artefacts:

1. a page called GlossaryItems with the instructions for translators
2. several subpages GlossaryItems/A through GlossaryItems/Z were the glossaryitem template calling are placed
3. a GlossaryItem template to show in a table form the items and all the translations/definitions
4. several pages DPL (as we need) to show the glossary in several languages and classification.

The most heavy work will be to place all the template calls in the subpages...

Two more question are: "what about link?" and "what about source (quelle)?"... i.e.:

1. every glossary item has (or will have) a wiki page?
2. the source is the first occurence of the term in books?
3. the source must be placed in glossary, or is available on the page?

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 22.03.2008 02:00

Sorry for double posting, but I have first examples:


1. this is the template for glossary item:

http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... ssarioVoce


2. these are few pages with few terms, written using the above template

http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... lossario/A
http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... lossario/B
http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... lossario/C

only on these page the translators teams act!


3. this is a simple italian glossary

http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... o/IndiceIT


4. this is a simple german glossary, with italian definition

http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... ndiceDE-IT

in this case the item are sorted as they are in pages A,B,C... and not using alphabetical order of the first key, thus a little bit more work is needed.

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Beitrag von Borbaradwurm » 22.03.2008 16:36

No offense but please keep in mind that unofficial translations are not in the scope of Wiki Aventurica. The wiki is suppost to be an index of The Dark Eye related products. The Dutch/English/German/Italian/Spanish part of the wiki should be a index of the Dutch/English/German/Italian/Spanish language releases. The reason for this is that any unofficial translation of rules/background information would be an unlicensed and unauthorized use of The Dark Eye trademarks and content. As per this page the person liable for any legal actions taken against this by Ulisses - who do not give "kind permission" for such translations - would be Dennis Reichelt who kindly hosts the wiki.

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 22.03.2008 18:29

mmm... I agree with you, but we are talking about "proposal", as the thread title suggests: first of all define the "how to?" and "is it possible?", then refine with "what?" and "where?"

Thus, official can be replaced by version of rulesystem: DSA1, DSA2...

Moreover, there are several players, and several web site, with custom rules: because the glossary structure is thinked for general purpose, such parameter was placed for generality.

EDIT: BTW, what about this page: En:Wiki_Aventurica:Licensing

"»THE DARK EYE«, »ARMALION«, »AVENTURIA« and »MYRANOR« are registered trademarks of the company Fantasy Productions. Copyright (c) 1997-2008. All rights reserved. This website contains non-official information about the roleplaying game The Dark Eye and about the worlds Aventuria and Myranor. This Information can be in conflict to the official published texts."

Could be of interest point out what is official and what not, isn't it?
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Borbaradwurm
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Beitrag von Borbaradwurm » 24.03.2008 14:47

Viridovix hat geschrieben:mmm... I agree with you, but we are talking about "proposal", as the thread title suggests: first of all define the "how to?" and "is it possible?", then refine with "what?" and "where?"
That is why I posted what I posted above.
Viridovix hat geschrieben:Thus, official can be replaced by version of rulesystem: DSA1, DSA2...
No, for the Wiki Aventurica all DSA products that were released by the license holder at the time of release are "official" (see Offiziell).
Viridovix hat geschrieben:Moreover, there are several players, and several web site, with custom rules: because the glossary structure is thinked for general purpose, such parameter was placed for generality.
Yes, but all those websites are not working in the same scope as Wiki Aventurica is.
Viridovix hat geschrieben:EDIT: BTW, what about this page: En:Wiki_Aventurica:Licensing

"»THE DARK EYE«, »ARMALION«, »AVENTURIA« and »MYRANOR« are registered trademarks of the company Fantasy Productions. Copyright (c) 1997-2008. All rights reserved. This website contains non-official information about the roleplaying game The Dark Eye and about the worlds Aventuria and Myranor. This Information can be in conflict to the official published texts."
That is a translation of the old and now out-of-date legal information by Fantasy Productions that was required to be on any website that wanted to even mention anything regarding the game/universe.
Viridovix hat geschrieben:Could be of interest point out what is official and what not, isn't it?
That's not the point, the scope of Wiki Aventurica is to index all officially released products (and not to be an DSA encyclopedia, see Wiki_Aventurica:Richtlinien) and such index is of course not offical as it is not from the license holder. The is unofficial content in the wiki but by guideline such content has to marked as such (see Vorlage:Inoffiziell). The main reason that I saying this is that most of the English language (maybe the French too, but I don't speak that language so I can't tell) part of Wiki Aventurica are already in violation of that policy. And of course the fact that such violation(s) would not get the contributors into legal trouble it would hit only the hoster as he is responsible for what he is hosting.
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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 24.03.2008 15:23

I don't really get the point here. The proposed glossary should contain official translations, unofficial translations should be marked as such, but could still be included. How to distinguish between official and unofficial information is a technicality that will be taken care of when we start implementing the proposal. Of course the glossary shouldn't explain the terms in more detail than we usually do in the Wiki Aventurica. Now, where's the problem?

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Beitrag von Borbaradwurm » 24.03.2008 15:56

The point is the desastrous state the English part of Wiki Aventurica is already in there is absolutly NO separation of official and unofficial material (see: Diskussion:En:English-German_dictionary#Überarbeiten?)

And btw if you really cannot see why something is a really bad idea if legal consequences for something you did hit someone else, than I'm afraid you are beyond help.
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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 24.03.2008 16:16

We're not discussing the english part of the Wiki Aventurica, but a glossary that still has to be created. I (now) see that there (as always) might be legal problems and I guess it'd be a good idea to write an email to Ulisses as I can (now) see that this glossar is indeed out of the usual scope of our work. I very much doubt that Dennis Reichelt will ever have to fear legal consequences from Thomas and Florian, but of course (as always) it doesn't hurt to ask first.
And btw if you really cannot see why something is a really bad idea if legal consequences for something you did hit someone else, than I'm afraid you are beyond help.
As I feel that your tone gets insulting, I conclude that you might felt insulted by me, I apologize for that and hope we can continue the discussion in a more objective manner.

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Beitrag von Borbaradwurm » 24.03.2008 16:27

Igen hat geschrieben:We're not discussing the english part of the Wiki Aventurica, but a glossary that still has to be created. I (now) see that there (as always) might be legal problems and I guess it'd be a good idea to write an email to Ulisses as I can (now) see that this glossar is indeed out of the usual scope of our work. I very much doubt that Dennis Reichelt will ever have to fear legal consequences from Thomas and Florian, but of course (as always) it doesn't hurt to ask first.

As I feel that your tone gets insulting, I conclude that you might felt insulted by me, I apologize for that and hope we can continue the discussion in a more objective manner.
No need to apologize and I my comment wasn't meant to be an insult, but this discussion (which is btw the same as the one about the english part of the wiki or why it is not an encyclopedia) ignores these legal aspects: an unofficial translation would void the permission "Genehmigung" to use of the trademarks and content "Marke und Inhalten" given by Ulisses (per the copyright disclaimer, Wiki_Aventurica:Lizenzbestimmungen#DSA-Lizenz ) as we don't have permission to do an translation.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong I see your intentions to work for the good of the DSA community. However the problem is that (unfortunatly) the community has no right to do an unofficial translation of rules and/or content (e.g. background information).
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Beitrag von Rondrikan » 24.03.2008 16:59

You have to agree with Borbaradwurm on this matter. I already had this discussion with him and this is why I started the "Wörterbücher"-page as an replacment for the current "English-German-Dictionary". Unfortunately I'm not the most constant contibuter, so it will take a while. It's really the only possibility. You just need a reference to an official product. And when you have this reference, you don't need an description other than the "normal" wiki-page.

This was also a hard lesson for me.

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Beitrag von Viridovix » 24.03.2008 18:17

Igen hat geschrieben:I don't really get the point here. The proposed glossary should contain official translations, unofficial translations should be marked as such, but could still be included. How to distinguish between official and unofficial information is a technicality that will be taken care of when we start implementing the proposal. Of course the glossary shouldn't explain the terms in more detail than we usually do in the Wiki Aventurica. Now, where's the problem?
I agree, this is the point: create the structure with several parameters, then deciding, accordingly with scope of each wiki/web site/private citizen what of them use or not. In this first "brainstorming" phase, each idea must be written out. It is better to cut off something than addeing later.
Borbaradwurm hat geschrieben:
Viridovix hat geschrieben: Thus, official can be replaced by version of rulesystem: DSA1, DSA2...
No, for the Wiki Aventurica all DSA products that were released by the license holder at the time of release are "official" (see Offiziell).
I think that this is a misunderstanding: In my mind a useful parameter non mentioned in the above schema is the version. In DSA there are several terms that changed during all these years or change their application area, and thus their meaning (as example: Geschicklichkeit and Gewandtheit or Dexterity, that in DSA1 is a Talent and in DSA4 is an Attribute).

Thus could be useful a version parameter.

Moreover, we are trying to "fuse" the concept of Glossary (terms and their definition) with the concept of Translation (terms in several languages). IMHO the Glossary should be comprised in the license agreement between Ulisses and Wiki Aventurica. The translation can be splitted in two more problems: term translation when an official translation exist (and IMHO this should be comprised in the license agreement too) and when an unofficial translation doesn't exist (and this seems to be a problem, relating to your license agreement)...
Borbaradwurm hat geschrieben: No need to apologize and I my comment wasn't meant to be an insult, but this discussion (which is btw the same as the one about the english part of the wiki or why it is not an encyclopedia) ignores these legal aspects: an unofficial translation would void the permission "Genehmigung" to use of the trademarks and content "Marke und Inhalten" given by Ulisses (per the copyright disclaimer, Wiki_Aventurica:Lizenzbestimmungen#DSA-Lizenz ) as we don't have permission to do an translation.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong I see your intentions to work for the good of the DSA community. However the problem is that (unfortunatly) the community has no right to do an unofficial translation of rules and/or content (e.g. background information).
I didn't think that your first post was insulting, just a little bit OT, correct in his content - copyright question are always important - but a little OT in a technical thread :-)

What you stated here is really interesting.

I had several months ago a mail exchange with Thomas Römer about the permission needed to publish http://www.usnb.it . Our web site is basically DSA1 with a lot of house rules. Thomas give us the permission under some conditions: no high resolution images and maps, don't give the possibility to reconstruct the original books, point out the author of each image used, report the copyright statement available in the Ulisses forum. And we respected such condition.

There were no condition about official translation, and this sounds good IMHO, because no official translation in italian are available since DSA1 in 1989. It seems there is a little difference from http://www.usnb.it and Wiki Aventurica.

The condition on translation sounds me strange... so the question about translation must be investigate, and the idea about contacting Thomas is good for me (it is interesting for the italian players too, because of no official translation available and for me, because I'm working on a italian translation from english version to submit to Thomas, as a italian community contribution).

In the meanwhile, I will work on the technical aspect. When Thomas gives us indications, we can modify the work accordingly.

V.
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Borbaradwurm
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Beitrag von Borbaradwurm » 26.03.2008 10:58

Viridovix hat geschrieben:Moreover, we are trying to "fuse" the concept of Glossary (terms and their definition) with the concept of Translation (terms in several languages). IMHO the Glossary should be comprised in the license agreement between Ulisses and Wiki Aventurica. The translation can be splitted in two more problems: term translation when an official translation exist (and IMHO this should be comprised in the license agreement too) and when an unofficial translation doesn't exist (and this seems to be a problem, relating to your license agreement)...

[...]

I had several months ago a mail exchange with Thomas Römer about the permission needed to publish www.usnb.it . Our web site is basically DSA1 with a lot of house rules. Thomas give us the permission under some conditions: no high resolution images and maps, don't give the possibility to reconstruct the original books, point out the author of each image used, report the copyright statement available in the Ulisses forum. And we respected such condition.

There were no condition about official translation, and this sounds good IMHO, because no official translation in italian are available since DSA1 in 1989. It seems there is a little difference from www.usnb.it and Wiki Aventurica.

The condition on translation sounds me strange... so the question about translation must be investigate, and the idea about contacting Thomas is good for me (it is interesting for the italian players too, because of no official translation available and for me, because I'm working on a italian translation from english version to submit to Thomas, as a italian community contribution).

In the meanwhile, I will work on the technical aspect. When Thomas gives us indications, we can modify the work accordingly.
Well, all my posts now come down to the "where?" and not the "how?". In the scenario you propose it's a clash of licenses: Wiki Aventuria itself is licensed under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License (GNU FDL). As you pointed out such translation project would require written permission by Ulisses. But content created under such special permission cannot be covered by the GNU FDL.

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 26.03.2008 17:14

mmm... no, I don't believe. In a web site you can license different pages with different license, or specify in your license what is covered by the license itself.

As for example, the wiki-aventurica is licensed under GNU FDL, but of course you cannot license under GNU FDL the DSA logo, or the DAS SCHWARZE AUGE name itself, or the book covers...

But you can license under GNU FDL your work of classification, your own commentary and text, your template and wiki layout.

In www.usnb.it almost 80% of the pages are our own work (extension kit and home rules) and the remain 20% is DSA1. We release our work under Creative Commons, but of course DSA1 materials is NOT licensed under CC.

In the same way, a simple glossary can stay both in wiki-aventurica and www.usnb.it web sites. A different question is the translation added.

I think could be a good idea to contact Thomas and Florian (I think Don-Schauen) to ask what about official and unofficial translation publication. IMHO opinion we can propose to place an advice or a disclaimer in the Glossary page about the unofficial translation. Moreover I'm close to the end of italian translation, hoping that Thomas will accept this contribute, then we will have the official translation for italian...

So, again, we must contact Ulisses (Thomas? Florian? Patric?) pointing out the problem and announcing the italian version too... a letter signed by german, italian, english and french (Bruno Lalonde?) players/fan club could be interesting, isn't it?

Moreover, a translation and glossary work could be of interest for Ulisses itself too... if at Ulisses will decide to print in other countries they'll have a lot of preparation work already done. And because they are the license owner, they can "suggest" us to change some translation if they don't like it :-)

Do you think could be a good idea?

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 26.03.2008 17:21

@Borbaradwurm: We have the special permission to upload pictures (taken from DSA publications) in the Wiki Aventurica. On each page we mention that we have this special permission. Why shouldn't that be legal? And why shouldn't we be able to do the same for translations?

Maybe there is a difference (i haven't studied law), but still I really don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of this. If Thomas, Florian and Patric are fine with the idea, why shouldn't we be? Because Thomas, Florian and Patric might sue Dennis? I don't think so. But since Dennis is the one taking the "risk", we might as well ask Dennis if he's ok with the glossary when Thomas, Florian und Patric are. And since you think it's such a great legal risk you can advise him not to allow us to start this project. I guess that would settle the "where" question.

EDIT: @Viridovix: I think your proposal is good, we should do it that way!
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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 26.03.2008 17:33

WOW... sorry Igen, in the meanwhile I made some edit on my post :-)

so, the proposal can be pointed out as follow:

"Dear Ulisses, wiki aventurica, www.usnb.it, <others> are interested in a collaborative project of glossary and translation of DSA therms in German, Italian, English, <others>.

The glossary will be publicated on the wiki aventurica, www.usnb.it, <others> with the requested advice. The wiki aventurica version will be the leader (i.e. main version).

Assuming that the leadership of this project is of wiki aventurica because mother tongue and since there could be some legal aspect due to the license therm regarding official and unofficial translation, we ask to you the related permission.

We wish to assure you that if any modification in the translation therm is required by Ulisses, we will made accordingly.

Moreover, www.usnb.it people is translating DSA4 from english version (ISBN: 1-932564-02-0) and can release such translation to Ulisses for free, saving the name of the authors in further publications."

This sounds good?

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 26.03.2008 18:02

Dear Ulisses,

In a collaborative project members of the online communities wiki-aventurica.de, usnb.it, <others> would like to create a multilingual glossary in German, Italian, English and <others>.

We intend to publish the glossary on each of the previously mentioned websites, where the version on wiki-aventurica.de will be the working version. A sample page illustrating our idea can be found on the following page:
http://www.usnb.it/wiki/index.php?title ... ndiceDE-IT
Since we believe that unofficial translations of terms related to TDE are not covered by the current agreement between Wiki Aventurica and Ulisses Spiele and we would like to make sure that you approve of our project, we would like to kindly ask for your permission to create such a glossary."
Hm, I made some corrections, reformulated some statements and left out the part about making changes when necessary, since I think that our intention to stick to everything that is official is very well known to Ulisses. Are you ok with the changes?

EDIT: I just noticed that I also unintentionally left out your unofficial translation of the rule book. I would suggest to discuss that issue in a separate email as to not get it confused with what we'd like to do with the glossary.

Borbaradwurm
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Beitrag von Borbaradwurm » 26.03.2008 20:35

Igen hat geschrieben:We have the special permission to upload pictures (taken from DSA publications) in the Wiki Aventurica. On each page we mention that we have this special permission. Why shouldn't that be legal? And why shouldn't we be able to do the same for translations?

Maybe there is a difference (i haven't studied law), but still I really don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of this. If Thomas, Florian and Patric are fine with the idea, why shouldn't we be? Because Thomas, Florian and Patric might sue Dennis? I don't think so. But since Dennis is the one taking the "risk", we might as well ask Dennis if he's ok with the glossary when Thomas, Florian und Patric are. And since you think it's such a great legal risk you can advise him not to allow us to start this project. I guess that would settle the "where" question.
You seriously don't get it: either you can't do this on Wiki Aventurica because you would need permission by Ulisses (see the no encyclopedia discussion, etc) or even if you had permission because of the license each and every Wiki Aventurica article (read: text, images are covered by something else, just like on Wikipedia) is covered by: the GNU FDL.

The GNU FDL gives anyone permission to copy the article which would not work in case of your glossary of unofficial translations, anyone would be required to get permission by Ulisses first.

I don't know what license the wiki at www.usnb.it is under so I cannot comment on that.

And you proposal to ignore this is a bad idea. This so called intellectual property legislation does exist. You've got to live with it now.

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 26.03.2008 20:57

It seems that we are oriented to ask the Ulisses permission. But just for point out wat GNU FDL states about translations:


http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

Point 8.

8. TRANSLATION

Translation is considered a kind of modification, so you may distribute translations of the Document under the terms of section 4. Replacing Invariant Sections with translations requires special permission from their copyright holders, but you may include translations of some or all Invariant Sections in addition to the original versions of these Invariant Sections. You may include a translation of this License, and all the license notices in the Document, and any Warranty Disclaimers, provided that you also include the original English version of this License and the original versions of those notices and disclaimers. In case of a disagreement between the translation and the original version of this License or a notice or disclaimer, the original version will prevail.

If a section in the Document is Entitled "Acknowledgements", "Dedications", or "History", the requirement (section 4) to Preserve its Title (section 1) will typically require changing the actual title.
Zuletzt geändert von Viridovix am 26.03.2008 20:59, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 26.03.2008 20:58

@Borbaradwurm: You're just repeating yourself. Read again and answer points made by Viridovix and me. To ease this task for you I quote the relevant passages:
Viridovix hat geschrieben:[...]In a web site you can license different pages with different license, or specify in your license what is covered by the license itself.

As for example, the wiki-aventurica is licensed under GNU FDL, but of course you cannot license under GNU FDL the DSA logo, or the DAS SCHWARZE AUGE name itself, or the book covers...

But you can license under GNU FDL your work of classification, your own commentary and text, your template and wiki layout.
Igen hat geschrieben:@Borbaradwurm: We have the special permission to upload pictures (taken from DSA publications) in the Wiki Aventurica. On each page we mention that we have this special permission. Why shouldn't that be legal? And why shouldn't we be able to do the same for translations?

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 26.03.2008 21:28

Viridovix hat geschrieben:It seems that we are oriented to ask the Ulisses permission. But just for point out wat GNU FDL states about translations:


http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

Point 8.

8. TRANSLATION

Translation is considered a kind of modification, so you may distribute translations of the Document under the terms of section 4. Replacing Invariant Sections with translations requires special permission from their copyright holders, but you may include translations of some or all Invariant Sections in addition to the original versions of these Invariant Sections. You may include a translation of this License, and all the license notices in the Document, and any Warranty Disclaimers, provided that you also include the original English version of this License and the original versions of those notices and disclaimers. In case of a disagreement between the translation and the original version of this License or a notice or disclaimer, the original version will prevail.

If a section in the Document is Entitled "Acknowledgements", "Dedications", or "History", the requirement (section 4) to Preserve its Title (section 1) will typically require changing the actual title.
If I understand this correctly this allows us to translate any article in the Wiki Aventurica, since they all fall under the GNU FDL (according to Borbaradwurm, which I don't believe to be correct)? Kind of ironic..

Borbaradwurm
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Beitrag von Borbaradwurm » 27.03.2008 01:37

No, Igen, you should read my posts, it's two different issues: you need permission to do the unofficial translation, but even if you have such permission content covered by this extra special permission cannot be licensed under the FDL (and that means it cannot be hosted on Wiki Aventurica) because the FDL would allow anybody to use modify/copy the it for any use BUT copies would have be permitted by Ulisses and not you guys. It is not about the translation part of the FDL, it's about that this glossary may not be licensed under the FDL in the first place. Since all articles on Wiki Aventurica are automatically licensed FDL, as you are told on every edit, it is not the place for this. The permissions to use trademarks (which is given to any community webside by Ulisses if the copyright template is in place) and the additional image usage have nothing to do with this. It's about what license all articles on Wiki Aventurica are licensed under. That is all I'm saying.

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Igen
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Beitrag von Igen » 27.03.2008 02:21

Ok, let's clearly separate the issues here and I hope you can answer each of my points:

1. According to this page the errata are protected by copyright. Now, publishing them under the GNU FDL is illegal, right? And doesn't the same hold for the indices? What legal argument justifies their existence in Wiki Aventurica?

2. All articles published under the GNU FDL may be translated if the criteria mentioned on the page Viridovix' linked above are met. Where's the legal problem here?

3. You're talking about "respecting intellectual property". What do you think who should be protected by these laws? We're talking about the theoretical case that the people whose "intellectual property" we should "respect" actually give us the permission to publish unofficial translations in the Wiki Aventurica under the GNU FDL. Do you really see a moral problem here?
Do you really think that there will be "legal consequences"? If in some future scenario Ulisses realizes that they shouldn't have given the permission, don't want the unofficial translation on Wiki Aventurica anymore, they can write an e-mail and we can remove it.

I just can't believe you'd put a stop to a community project Ulisses Spiele approves of because of some legal technicalities nobody cares about.

Edit: What I'm told when editing: "Außerdem gibst du uns hiermit die Zusage, dass du den Text selbst verfasst hast, dass der Text Allgemeingut (public domain, siehe auch Urheberrechte beachten) ist, oder dass der Copyright-Inhaber seine Zustimmung gegeben hat.". The way I read this is that it's okay to publish translations in Wiki Aventurica under the GNU FDL when the one holding the copyright allows us to do so.

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Viridovix
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Beitrag von Viridovix » 27.03.2008 12:59

Borbaradwurm pointed out what is the really question: the GNU FDL is not the proper solution for this kind of problem. This license was born in order to publicate software handbook: the product is the software, the handbook is an added feature.

The software house (regardless Open Source Software or not) distribute software, and release handbook under GNU FDL: this is a good choice for the software house itself, because the translation is always a cost, and the community help is always appreciated.

In this case, the "book" is the product itself. If you publish under GNU FDL on Wiki Aventurica the glossary only (thus terms and definitions, without translation), another user or publisher (say for instance www.usnb.it) is able to take the glossary and make the translation as per GNU FDL (Derived work). Moreover, if www.usnb.it publish its translation, another (say www.aventurie.com) can add the french translation and so on...
(and of course, wiki-aventurica can take all and publish a full translated glossary :lol: )

Thus, a glossary could be published by wiki-aventurica, but because of the kind of license, this CAN create as a consequence a violation of the original agreement between wiki-aventurica and Ulisses.

BTW, at the moment all the content in Wiki Aventurica can be translated as per GNU FDL, regardless all the license agreement with Ulisses!

I think that, what we can do is ask anyway for agreement with Ulisses if they are interested in glossary project support. It is possible that Ulisses will support this project considering that if in this glossary all most important language are used (say german, english, italian, spanish and french) we will cover the largest part of the "game market".

Moreover, probably the glossario page(s) can be licensed under a different license...

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